As usual, the preparedness level and expertise of the average person in the group is severely lacking. Perhaps lacking is the wrong word but I give credit for trying because everyone has to start somewhere. Recently we talked about the size of a garden and hydroponics set-up that a group of 30 people would need in order to get all of the food the group needed. There were only a few of us that discussed that the numbers were absolutely unrealistic and that's why such things need to be PART of preps, not the only preps.
Who has a warehouse for aquaponics (with natural light, insulation, etc.) and who has a garden that's 1000q feet (or an area that's already prep'd with good soil)?
90 days worth of food for each person is the current minimum... oh no, HELL no. One year should be the minimum basic standard. That much food for one person isn't super expensive although it might not be fun and exciting and it doesn't take up much room at all with buckets. When I first started attending the group meetings most people were saying 30 days of food was good and that they would bring it with them if they had to 'bug out' to a retreat. I was able to help move that up a few months.
What about the people who have a years worth of food but plan on having a group of people 'show up' in an event? Let's say a couple in the group are bringing 10 people to a retreat. In our opinion they should each have a years worth of food (minimum) already pre-staged, they should have some sort of sweat equity in the retreat, they should have supplies besides food already set-up at the retreat.
I suppose we feel people should have some sort of mental and physical investment in a retreat. Even children and elderly can help but nobody seems to want to discuss this but they sure want them to just show up with backpacks and carts and cars full of whatever crap they could stuff in there and pretend it's 30 days worth of food.
That's just food. What about seeds for a garden, hand tools, screws, nails, tape, tarps, thread, oil, vitamins, batteries, portable battery chargers, blankets, pots and pans, soap, medicine, etc? Instead of discussions like this, there is a push to get ham radio licenses and yet nobody can answer my questions of 'why?'. Why do people feel like they need a license for everything instead of just making sure they know how to use it?
The good news is I've met a few serious people and we are hosting them next weekend for lunch. I'm happy to help people out and put some direction out there to keep people on track. They just need to 'want' to be on track and not just in some cool high school clique.
Seems to me you're right on track and of the right mind about bugging out. I think many people, maybe myself a bit, haven't really calculated how much they use in a month even. Maybe an exercise of logging all food and liquid consumption for a month would open some eyes. We've done it and my eyes were opened.
ReplyDeleteI was curious about the 1000 sq. feet for a garden. Is that per person? Per family? We have a garden at our own lot and also in a neighbor's back yard. Rough estimate is 2000-2500 square feet. We garden year round and I'm curious if people realize how much time and effort that requires? And that supplies some of our food, some to our adult children and some to a few friends.
You bring up some very good questions.
The basis was something like 3 plots of 8x8 per family would provide enough food for a year. This was from a book someone read but here in Colorado you need to grow twice as much food in a fairly short growing season.
DeleteThe group discussed it was probably only 2 hours a day for 2 people to maintain said garden. I reminded people that you have to keep rodents and animals out so it's more like guard duty at night, not just some watering and weeding and let it be.
I think I was off on the 1000sf, just a number that came to mind when I was thinking on it this morning. Its probably more like an acre that would be needed but no matter the size, it's unrealistic especially with a 5ish month season here unless you have another warehouse sized greenhouse.
Upon deeper thought, our garden square footage may be misleading. About half of the 2000 sq. feet is fruit trees spread throughout the yards. I think your manpower of 2 people, 2 hours a day is a good average. Some days it will be 6 and some days 0 hours. It depends on the season.
DeleteThat also doesn't include care of the chickens. The chickens we consider separate of the garden. Feeding each day is 15 minutes or less.
I had to just explain to future spouse about home-made food from the kitchen. I was explaining that when I peel a potato the peelings are used to make potato chips, I don't throw them away. Future spouse said to get into the modern era and go the store and buy chips. True but when there is no store to go to you can give me potatoes (or any root vegetable), corn, or flour and I will make chips. Also, gardening to supplement food is sure a lot different than gardening to provide for all your food needs. If you really have to garden (vegetables and grains) to provide approximately 2000 calories per day you will need lots of space. If that can be supplemented with fruit from trees as well as meat from animals raised or hunted then growing your food would be much more manageable.
ReplyDeleteWhats interesting about your FS talking about going to the store is that your soon to be new grocery store has often made me think the apocalypse had just happened and I missed the news about it. Especially when it comes to bread and dairy (and even potatoes once!).
DeleteUsing all sources for supplementing is the best plan I can come up with and that's with having years of food. Relying on any one source is a recipe that might not turn out as planned. We are going to drop some more mature fruit tree's in this year because we don't think any of the apple tree's made it out alive.
Anchorage gets 95% of its food by cargo ship, and gardens - at least in the city - are practically non-existent. A reason why Anchorage survived the 9.2 'quake in '64 is because 50% of the population gardened. Now, almost no one does. And the most reliable estimates are that if/when the supply line is interrupted, grocery store shelves will be bare within 72 hours. Plan on that, folks.
ReplyDeleteWe are hoping to have a garden at each location this year so the worst case scenario is we get our average yield. We know a lot of people and maybe 1% have a garden of any sort. Even when we both hate the garden (for various reasons) it always comes down to the what if.
DeleteI looked at different groups in the 1980's. Even went out of state, and I met some very, very interesting people. I still touch base with others from time to time, based on old contacts. But I've never found a group I could join , for various reasons. Eventually, I built my own.
ReplyDeleteI never thought of you as the forgiving type. I remember one of your first posts I ever read, when you were just getting up that way and getting mad because some people didn't keep their dogs on leashes....
Have you mellowed with experience, or is this a clever subterfuge? ;-)
I'm working hard on being a more patient and forgiving person. It's not easy but I keep having to remind myself that all things end.
DeleteAs far as groups go, so far, they are really testing my hard work.
My biggest problem with finding a group is this. It takes an aggressive person to start one. He wants to give all the orders. I realize the need for support but I'm not having somebody else tell me what to do. The only group I ever saw that I believe I could have played a subordinate role in and been happy was one down in Florida, largely veterans, all used to the idea of hierarchy. They had their own group retreat, well supplied and well established. But even they eventually broke up. People moved off, some this and some that. Maybe a self sustaining survivalist group is just a Rawles inspired fantasy, I don't know. I put together a small group for myself in the end, people I knew and could trust. But even that has been hard to hold together. One fellow moved to New Mexico. One woman married someone I didn't trust. Very fluid situation, all in all.
DeleteI can't disagree with you on the fantasy part. I think we will keep trying and maybe meet enough people who think the same way, locally, that if people need help with something they at least have others to lean on.
DeleteI've always been the type of person that someone can call and I'll drop what I'm doing to help. Let the dog out, feed the horses, check the inside temp, etc. I'm hoping we can find more of the same, someone we can call when an emergency happens, tell where the key is hidden and not worry about the small things. It's a slow process and one that puts us out there but as long as people accept us for who we are and our good deeds, perhaps fantasy can become reality.
Let us know how your meeting with this new group of folks goes. Are they local?
ReplyDeleteDo you know of any locals who raise their own food? I know there are the large hay farms but does anyone grow any other crops on a larger scale? I looked around for fruit trees but in the winter it's harder to tell what each kind of tree is and I couldn't see well anyway! In some areas around there the trains were built not for mining but to haul potatoes. Are they grown around there anymore?
None of them are local but a few of them are looking to buy property in the area so I'm doing my part to show them around. If they move into the area it's one more family that we can all network with.
DeleteI don't know of anyone who does food production. I rarely see any gardens, I've never seen an 'eggs for sale' sign, etc. There is a great bakery in town and the Amish often have a table set up downtown selling baked goods. The 'natural food store' isn't anything special and not much is local. I've seen some chickens at our neighbors but nothing in more than household production volume.
There has been a large influx of goats and sheep in the last 6 months so I'm hopeful something might come out of that but we think the downfall for food production in the area is population density. Hay isn't worth a lot but with the vast fields the farms seem to do OK.
Right in your intersection location there are a few new places going in, maybe they will get some sort of production going.